Swinney to discuss independence referendum with Starmer in bid to end 'stalemate'

John Swinney says he will ask the Prime Minister for a Section 30 order to hold an independence referendum when the two leaders meet next month.

Keir Starmer phoned the First Minister on Tuesday to congratulate him on winning the Scottish Parliament election, but made it clear he was still resolutely opposed to another referendum.

However, he invited Swinney – who is expected to be re-elected as First Minister by Holyrood next week – to meet.

In an interview for Scotland Tonight, the SNP leader said he would continue his demand for Westminster to authorise a second independence referendum.

“I talked to the Prime Minister about the issues that had arisen in the election, particularly about the cost of living concerns”, Swinney said.

“I also said to him that we now have an even greater majority in the Scottish Parliament in favour of independence.

“The Prime Minister reasserted his position that he has a manifesto commitment not to progress on the independence question, but said that we should meet and I welcome the fact that we’re going to do that.”

The SNP secured a fifth consecutive win at Holyrood in the May 7 elections but fell short of the 65-seat majority that Swinney said was the only way to ensure a second referendum.

The First Minister now concedes that he will have to find “another way” of breaking the logjam.

A Section 30 order, a section of the Scotland Act, would allow Holyrood to pass laws in areas that are normally reserved for Westminster.

Swinney added: “I expect the Scottish Parliament will support my call for a Section 30 order for the powers to be transferred to the Scottish Parliament to enable the Parliament to legislate on that question as it has happened.

“We’ll pass a motion on that question. I would imagine about a week after I become the First Minister.

“That would enable us to take forward the legitimate call from the people of Scotland to have a say on their democratic and constitutional future, as evidenced by the fact that we have the largest number of MSPs in the Scottish Parliament now supporting independence and a referendum.

“We’ve got to discuss that because we can’t have this stalemate.”

Reform

The SNP leader doubled down on his vow not to work with Reform after the party won 17 seats in Scotland.

Swinney said he would not be seeking common ground with Reform “because I fundamentally disagree with them”.

“What I’ve said is that I will govern for all”, he added. “I will do my best to serve everyone who lives in Scotland, and to ensure that their best interests and their considerations are uppermost in my thinking.

“I won’t cooperate in Parliament with the Reform as a political party, because I think what they represent is values that create division within our society, and that’s not the way I intend to govern.

“I do, however, want to address the concerns of people who voted for Reform.

“I think there are people who vote for reform because they are at heart aligned with the thinking that Nigel Farage is setting out.

But there are lots of people who voted for Reform because they’re angry and frustrated about the standard of living under the challenges they face, and I want to try to reach those people.

“I will, obviously, listen to Reform. I’ve got duties as First Minister to answer questions from Reform, to respond to debates, and to respond to the points they make in statements.”

A spokesperson for No 10 said: “The Prime Minister committed to meeting to discuss shared issues, including the cost of living.

“As the Prime Minister told the First Minister, the manifesto this government was elected on was unambiguous that ‘Labour does not support independence or another referendum’.

“Our position remains unchanged.”